Modérateurs: Garion, Silverwitch
Hugues a écrit:Tu as tort cher Waddle. Tu ne sais pas ce qu'est une guerre civile visiblement, ni un coup d'état.
Compte sur moi pour t'enseigner dans les prochains jours.
C'est qu'à la différence de toi, j'argumente, plutôt que d'énoncer mes croyances
Et pour ton information: quelques gus ? 90% des gens arrêtés en lien avec ces évènements avait ces lectures.
À bientôt,
Hugues
Une guerre civile est la situation qui existe lorsqu'au sein d'un État, une lutte armée oppose les forces armées d'un État à des groupes armés identifiables, ou des groupes armés entre eux, dans des combats dont l'importance et l'extension dépasse la simple révolte ou l'insurrection1.
The Turner Diaries, published in 1978 under the pseudonym Andrew Macdonald by William Luther Pierce, is much more than a dystopian science fiction novel. For many extremist and white supremacist groups in the United States, this text has served as both a political manifesto and a war manual, providing ideological justification for the use of violence to achieve radical political goals. By telling the story of a civil war that overthrows the federal government and establishes a society based on white supremacy, the novel has influenced several generations of far-right militants. Its impact extends far beyond its initial publication, contributing to an ideology of violence and rejection of democratic institutions, with visible repercussions in some of the most notorious acts of terrorism in recent U.S. history.
The Turner Diaries portrays an American society on the brink of collapse, under the weight of what the author sees as political and racial betrayals, embodied by a multicultural, progressive, and oppressive government. The protagonists, a group of white supremacist militants, engage in a civil war against the state, characterized by terrorist attacks, assassinations of political leaders, and the establishment of a clandestine structure aimed at precipitating the collapse of the political system. This calculated use of violence, designed to spread fear and delegitimize the state's authority, is central to the novel and has found particular resonance among modern extremists. Far from being a mere work of fiction, the Turner Diaries has become a source of inspiration for those who see violence as the only way to protect what they believe to be true American values.
The influence of this text is not limited to fringe groups. Individuals such as Timothy McVeigh, responsible for the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, used this book as a roadmap for their terrorist actions. McVeigh, who had a copy of the Turner Diaries with him at the time of his arrest, explicitly cited the text as an inspiration for his attack, which killed 168 people and injured hundreds more. This tragic event underscores the tangible impact the novel has had on political violence in the United States. The ideas contained in the Turner Diaries continue to inspire far-right groups and anti-government movements, especially in the context of the rise of armed militias and white supremacist movements in recent decades.
The attack on the United States Capitol on January 6, 2021, represents a turning point in the evolution of this violent ideology. On that day, supporters of Donald Trump, motivated by unfounded allegations of electoral fraud, stormed the seat of the U.S. legislative power in an attempt to disrupt the certification of the 2020 presidential election results. This event, often described as an insurrection or riot, can be understood as a concrete manifestation of the ideological and asymmetric civil war advocated in the Turner Diaries. While the events of January 6 are sometimes framed as a spontaneous outburst of anger, they fit into a deeper dynamic of violent contestation fueled by decades of political radicalization and extremist ideology.
This thesis aims to explore the January 6 Capitol attack through the lens of the Turner Diaries, analyzing how this text not only influenced the actors involved but also shaped a culture of political violence in the United States. By reexamining the events of January 6 in light of this novel, it becomes clear that this assault was not an isolated incident but an expression of a civil war that had already been declared, albeit one that takes a different form from traditional civil wars. This conflict is not fought on traditional battlefields but in the streets, institutions, and political arenas, where violence becomes a tool to undermine the legitimacy of the state and provoke its collapse.
The Turner Diaries is not simply a dystopian novel intended to entertain; it is a text that provides a precise model of civil war, designed to be adopted by far-right militants. The story takes place in the near future, where a white supremacist organization called "The Organization" leads a campaign of terror against the federal government and ethnic minorities. The novel meticulously describes the stages of an armed insurrection, from early clandestine actions such as bombings and assassinations to the establishment of a new totalitarian regime based on racist principles. At each step, the characters in the book justify their violent actions by claiming that they are necessary to restore the natural order of things.
The primary characteristic of the Turner Diaries is the legitimization of political violence. For Pierce, violence is not merely a means to provoke change; it is a moral obligation for those who believe in white supremacy. The novel describes how small cells of insurgents, through carefully planned acts of terror, can precipitate the collapse of a government deemed illegitimate and oppressive. This strategy is based on the idea that the federal state is inherently corrupt and must be overthrown by force. This ideological framework has inspired several terrorist attacks and acts of violence in the United States, most notably the Oklahoma City bombing.
The 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, which killed 168 people, is one of the most striking examples of how the ideas in the Turner Diaries have been put into practice. Timothy McVeigh, the perpetrator of the bombing, directly drew inspiration from the novel to orchestrate his attack. The bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City is largely based on a scene in the book where the protagonists of the insurrection blow up a similar federal building. This chilling coincidence shows how Pierce’s text served as a manual for those seeking to use violence to advance their political objectives.
However, the influence of the Turner Diaries does not stop there. The book continued to circulate among far-right groups and anti-government militias, especially in the Internet age, where radical ideas can spread rapidly and reach a wider audience. Conspiracy theories and ideas of armed resistance against the government have found new life in online forums and discussion groups, creating a climate conducive to the radicalization of many individuals. This culture of distrust toward the state and the glorification of violence culminated on January 6, 2021, when thousands of Trump supporters stormed the Capitol.
The attack on the Capitol on January 6, 2021, is one of the most visible manifestations of this ongoing radicalization. On that day, thousands of demonstrators, convinced that the 2020 presidential election had been stolen, stormed the Capitol in an attempt to overthrow the democratic process. This act of violence cannot be understood simply as a reaction to allegations of electoral fraud; it fits into a larger dynamic of rejection of democratic institutions and political radicalization, a dynamic that the Turner Diaries helped to shape.
The Capitol attack follows the model of violent actions described in the Turner Diaries. In the novel, the protagonists begin their campaign with isolated actions against symbolic targets, such as federal buildings and government officials, before leading a large-scale insurrection. Similarly, the January 6 attack targeted a central symbol of American power: the Capitol, the seat of legislative power. By attacking this building, the insurgents sought to strike at the heart of American democracy, to disrupt the certification of electoral results, and to delegitimize the institutions that embody the state’s authority.
The slogans chanted by some of the demonstrators, such as "Hang Mike Pence" and calls to attack Nancy Pelosi, also echo the rhetoric of the "Day of the Rope" described in the Turner Diaries, where traitors to the white cause are publicly executed. These calls for violence are not mere expressions of anger but direct echoes of the insurrectionist strategy described in the book. In the Turner Diaries, violence against traitors and enemies of the white race is presented as a necessary step to restore social order. Similarly, the insurgents on January 6 sought to use violence to restore what they perceived as legitimate order by attacking those they viewed as traitors.
Unlike traditional civil wars, where two factions face off on battlefields, the civil war currently unfolding in the United States is asymmetric and diffuse. It is not a military conflict between two regular armies but a series of sporadic attacks, violent demonstrations, and attempts to subvert political institutions. This form of civil war, fueled by extremist ideologies and conspiracy theories, takes place through acts of targeted violence against symbols of the state and government representatives.
The Turner Diaries provides a conceptual framework for understanding this form of asymmetric civil war. In the novel, the protagonists do not seek to directly confront the army or law enforcement; they carry out clandestine actions and terrorist attacks designed to weaken the government and sow confusion among the population. Similarly, the insurgents on January 6 did not aim to control territory or overthrow the government through military means. Their goal was to seize a symbol of power—the Capitol—and use violence to delegitimize the democratic process.
This modern civil war is also ideological. It is fought not only in the physical realm but also in the ideological one, where narratives of betrayal and fraud fuel radicalization. The unfounded accusations of electoral fraud that circulated before and after the 2020 presidential election played a central role in the radicalization of the January 6 insurgents. These conspiracy theories served to justify the use of violence by presenting the government as an enemy that must be overthrown. In this context, violence is no longer seen as a crime but as a legitimate act of resistance against a corrupt system.
To understand the emergence of this modern civil war, it is crucial to consider the erosion of a shared truth, exacerbated by the discursive strategies of Donald Trump and his movement. Since his election in 2016, Trump has systematically attacked the foundations of factual reality by popularizing concepts such as “alternative facts.” This rhetoric, which relies on a constant questioning of objective truth, has played a central role in political polarization and the rise of radicalization in the United States. The invention and dissemination of false information, widely amplified by social media, have created a situation where a significant portion of the population lives in an alternative reality, distinct from that validated by institutions and experts.
This break with a shared truth is a fundamental characteristic of civil wars, where societal fragmentation is as cognitive as it is physical. By promoting the false idea that the 2020 presidential election was stolen, Trump plunged a large portion of his electorate into a true "war of facts," where any information contrary to their version of events is perceived as manipulation or conspiracy. This climate of widespread mistrust of the media, institutions, and even science has allowed conspiracy theories to thrive, creating the ideal conditions for an escalation of violence.
The alternative reality propagated by Trump and his MAGA movement directly fueled the January 6 insurrection. The demonstrators did not see themselves as insurgents but as patriots defending democracy against a supposed massive electoral fraud. Their belief in a "stolen" election is not based on objective evidence but on the incessant repetition of lies and disinformation, often relayed by right-wing media and social networks. This manipulation of reality created a cognitive fracture between two incompatible worldviews, exacerbating divisions within American society.
The concept of shared truth is essential to maintaining a functional democracy. When society can no longer agree on basic facts, it becomes impossible to resolve political disputes peacefully. The January 6 insurrection revealed the extent of this rupture. The insurgents were motivated by an unshakable belief in an alternative reality in which the government, the media, and democratic institutions had become enemies of the people. This loss of a shared truth is a central element in the dynamics of civil war, as it prevents any reconciliation or negotiation between opposing factions, each locked in its own version of reality.
Before further establishing that the events of January 6, 2021, are indeed a manifestation of civil war, it is important to define the criteria that characterize such a conflict. A civil war is commonly defined as a large-scale armed conflict involving factions within the same country, seeking to either take control of the central government, secede to form a new state, or impose an alternative ideology or system of governance. Several elements are necessary for a conflict to be classified as a civil war:
1. Organized violence: The parties involved must resort to some form of organized violence, whether through military confrontations, bombings, or insurrections. This is a key element that distinguishes civil war from mere riots or protests.
2. Involvement of a significant portion of the population: While a civil war does not necessarily involve the majority of the population, it often engages a significant portion of the country, whether along ethnic, political, or religious lines.
3. Clear political objectives: The warring parties must have defined political objectives, whether it is to overthrow the government, profoundly alter the country’s structure, or secede to form a new state.
4. Erosion of state legitimacy: Civil wars typically arise in contexts where the legitimacy of the government is seriously questioned by part of the population.
5. Sustained conflict over time: A defining feature of civil wars is not merely a single violent event but a series of ongoing confrontations, indicating a deeper, persistent struggle within the country. This extended period of unrest, whether through frequent violent clashes or prolonged political instability, differentiates civil wars from isolated rebellions.
6. Targeting of state institutions: Civil wars often involve attacks on or attempts to undermine key state institutions. These attacks are not just against political rivals but are meant to delegitimize and destabilize the functioning of the government as a whole, whether through physical confrontations, subversion, or symbolic actions.
7. Loss of a shared truth: Finally, a less tangible but equally crucial element is the loss of a shared truth. When different factions within the same country can no longer agree on fundamental facts, conflicts are exacerbated. Civil war is often fueled by divergent realities, where each faction creates its own "truth," unable to recognize the legitimacy or validity of opposing viewpoints. This fragmentation of reality, when pushed to the extreme, becomes a spark for open violence.
The events of January 6, 2021, meet many of the criteria for a civil war. First, while the attack on the Capitol did not take the form of a conventional military battle, it nevertheless involved organized violence. The insurgents, far from being mere demonstrators, were equipped with military gear, used coordinated tactics to breach the building, and some were affiliated with organized paramilitary groups, such as the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers. This demonstrates clear planning and intent to use force to achieve a political objective.
Second, although the insurgents did not represent a majority of the American population, they came from a significant segment of society that categorically rejects the results of the presidential election and, more broadly, the legitimacy of the federal government. This portion of the population, often referred to as the MAGA (Make America Great Again) movement, adheres to an alternative ideology based on the belief in widespread electoral fraud and the idea that the state has betrayed "real" Americans. This demonstrates the involvement of a significant portion of the population, ideologically if not physically present at the Capitol.
Third, the insurgents’ political objectives were clear: to prevent the certification of the electoral results and, by extension, to challenge the legitimacy of the democratic process. This aligns perfectly with the clear political objectives of civil war, where one of the goals is to overthrow or subvert the established order.
Fourth, January 6 marked an obvious erosion of the state’s legitimacy in the eyes of part of the population. On that day, American citizens saw the attack on the Capitol as a last-ditch attempt to save democracy, while for them, the country’s institutions had become illegitimate and corrupt. This rejection of state authority and the electoral process is a strong indicator of the emergence of a civil war-like conflict, even if this conflict takes less conventional forms than past civil wars.
Fifth, although January 6 was a one-day event, it was a flashpoint in a broader period of sustained conflict over time. The political tensions, misinformation campaigns, and radicalization of segments of the population did not begin or end with this event. The lead-up to the attack was fueled by months of heated rhetoric, legal battles, and protests that contested the legitimacy of the 2020 election. Furthermore, the divisions that drove the insurrection have continued to influence political discourse and destabilize the country, suggesting that the conflict is far from resolved.
Sixth, targeting of state institutions was central to the January 6 attack. The Capitol itself, as the seat of legislative power, was a prime symbol of the federal government. By attempting to halt the certification of the election results and breach the halls of Congress, the insurgents aimed not only to disrupt the democratic process but to attack the very core of the American political system. This direct assault on a key state institution aligns with the methods of modern civil conflict, where the objective is not necessarily territorial control but the undermining of governance and democratic stability.
Seventh, the loss of a shared truth was perhaps the most crucial factor in catalyzing the events of January 6. The rioters were motivated by months of false claims that the election had been stolen, amplified by political leaders and media sources. These diverging realities created an environment where rational political discourse broke down, and violence became a tool to challenge the opposing side’s version of reality. This cognitive dissonance between large portions of the population mirrors the ideological fractures that often lead to civil wars, this fragmentation and the inability to agree on a shared reality catalyzing the violence, and transforming political protest into an attempt to overthrow the democratic process.
The January 6, 2021, attack on the Capitol revealed the extent of political radicalization in the United States and marked a turning point in the country’s contemporary history. While shocking, this event is not unique; it fits into a long tradition of political violence and ideological extremism, rooted in texts like the Turner Diaries. By analyzing the January 6 attack through the lens of this novel, it becomes clear that the event is a manifestation of an ongoing civil war, a war that pits a radicalized portion of the population against democratic institutions.
This civil war, though it does not take the form of pitched battles, is just as real and dangerous to the political stability of the United States. Political violence has become a tool of contestation for some groups, and the events of January 6 show how easily this violence can escalate into open insurrection. The Turner Diaries not only predicted this type of violence but also encouraged it, providing an ideological framework that justifies the use of force against the government.
In conclusion, this thesis will argue that the January 6, 2021, attack on the Capitol was not an isolated incident but a key moment in an ongoing asymmetric civil war in the United States. Through a deep analysis of the Turner Diaries and their influence on far-right movements, this research will demonstrate how a work of fiction can have profound repercussions on political reality. This modern civil war, while different from traditional conflicts, represents an existential challenge for American democracy, and its consequences will continue to be felt in the years to come.
Waddle a écrit:L'argument qui tue... Je vous sors la thèse de quelqu'un qui parle de guerre civile. Pour contre argumenter il faut chercher au moins une autre thèse ( ou quelqu'un d'au moins le même niveau ) qui dit qu'il n'y a pas de guerre civile..
Tu te rends compte de la violence de l'argument d'autorité imparable ?
Waddle a écrit:Par ailleurs , même si je n'ai pas de thèse sur la question j'ai quelques commentaires. Déjà la thèse parle de "civil strife" donc "troubles civils" et pas de guerre civile.
Waddle a écrit:Et je l'ai dit, avant de dire que quelque chose est quelque chose ou équivalent , il faut définir cette chose. Quand tu auras donné une définition de guerre civile tu pourras alors montrer avec tes arguments pourquoi les faits collent à cette définition.
Hugues a écrit:Waddle a écrit:L'argument qui tue... Je vous sors la thèse de quelqu'un qui parle de guerre civile. Pour contre argumenter il faut chercher au moins une autre thèse ( ou quelqu'un d'au moins le même niveau ) qui dit qu'il n'y a pas de guerre civile..
Tu te rends compte de la violence de l'argument d'autorité imparable ?
Je me rends compte surotut que moi j'ai argumenté.
Que l'auteur de cette thèse argumente, comme par hasard avec les mêmes éléments que mes arguments.
Et que toi non.
A ton tour donc.
Hugues
Hugues a écrit:A ce propos d'ailleurs, parce que j'y songe soudainement et fais le rapprochement.
Vu samedi la série M. - L'enfant du siècle de Joe Wrighjt, avec l'acteur incroyable du non moins incroyable Martin Eden dont j'avais tant parlé, Luca Marinelli et sa présence élancée, cette impression de masse digne d'un Depardieu jeune, cette force de la nature, alors qu'il est bien plus chétif.
La série est l'adaptation du roman éponyme de 2018 et raconte la période du 23 mars 1919 au 3 janvier 1925...
Les qualités de Marinelli sont un remarquable choix pour incarner l'acteur principal de ces évènements, Benito Mussolini.
La série est pleine de bonnes idées, elle reprend en partie la mise en scène opératique et même des idées de décor vu chez le génial Marco Bellocchio sur le même sujet mussolinien, au moins la moitié de la série est habitée par ailleurs d'une musique que je qualifierai d'industrielle au sens où l'on croirait entendre des machines en marche et qui vont de plus en plus oppresser par le rythme qu'elles influe aux évènements mais aussi à l'ambiance le spectateur.
Il y a notamment aussi la belle idée d'un personnage mussolinien qui franchit sans cesse le 4e mur, conscient que nous sommes ses spectateurs.
C'est donc une fable, et ça s'assume comme tel.. mais c'est aussi une formidable réflexion et mise en perspective de la nature de la démocratie.
Et plus j'y pense, tant en la regardant, qu'en y repensant, tant en discutant sur la série elle même qu'en écrivant ici sur le 6 janvier, plus je me dis que cette série est un manifeste incroyable pour mettre en relation l'extrême droite américaine depuis 2015 (et la candidature de juin 2015) et le fascisme italien.
Presque tous les ingrédients des évènements qui ont mené à l'avènement du fascisme se retrouve dans ce qui se déroule aux Etats-Unis depuis juin 2015.
Or si les évènements se ressemblent, se font écho, pourquoi, alors que les historiens considèrent que le fascisme est né dans un contexte de guerre civile larvée, pourquoi ne pas qualifier des évènements de nature identique aux Etats-Unis de guerre civile.
Sauf à ne pas voir une guerre civile quand on en a une sous le nez, tout comme d'autres ne voit pas une invasion impérialiste, quand ils en ont une sous le nez.
Hugues
PS: Je n'ai aucune idée de quelle chaine la diffusera en France cette série. En Italie, Allemagne et au Royaume Uni, ce sera Sky, à partir de février pour l'Italie. Ailleurs, je ne sais point notamment en France. C'est une coproduction italo-française avec Pathé, en principe ça sera visible en France, mais où...
Et je mettrai dans l'aprem un extrait, pour vous montrer à quel point Marinelli est un choix génial.
PS2: Il y a deux blagues je crois qui font allusion d'ailleurs à la situation actuelle dans le monde. L'une est que lors d'un 4e mur, Mussolini nous dit "Make Italia Great Again", voilà tout mon programme.
L'autre blague, qui a fait rire beaucoup plus, je ne la connais pas exactement car j'étais distrait, mais de ce que j'ai pu en tirer, c'était une allusion à la situation internationale...
Trump Team Fears Damage From Racist Rally Remarks
The Trump campaign issued a rare statement distancing itself from a comedian’s offensive joke about Puerto Rico at his rally on Sunday, a sign that it was concerned about losing crucial votes
At the Georgia Tech campus in Atlanta on Monday night, Mr. Trump exaggerated and misstated the criticism, falsely claiming that Vice President Kamala Harris had said that everyone who doesn’t vote for her is “a Nazi.” He talked about his father, Fred Trump, whose parents were German, and claimed his father had told him, “Never use the word Nazi. Never use that word,” and “Never use the word Hitler.”
Mr. Trump, who has accused President Biden of running a “Gestapo administration,” a reference to Nazi Germany’s secret police, added, “I’m not a Nazi. I’m the opposite of a Nazi.” He told the rally crowd on Monday, “She’s a fascist, OK? She’s a fascist.”
En gros soit Trump gagne soit il y a forcément un complot et de la triche quoi... Et les tentatives d'assassinat c'est bien sûr l'état profond qui les organise et évidemment pas Trump lui même pour faire monter sa côte ( vu qu'on en est à tout se permettre dans des délires comolotistes...)B.Verkiler a écrit:Dans l'ensemble je touve que pour cette élection, tu nous as un peu moins aspergé de propagande pro-systeme et donc de fake-news made in CIA-démocrates-NYT..
Tu sais des choses qui te rendent confiant, genre des milliers de juges democrates qui font péter l'état de droit pour que les elections soient le moins tracables possible, peut-être une ultime tentative d'assassinat qui devrait.marcher cette fois-ci, ou bien tu t'es fait une raison et tu te dis que cette fois-ci, la fraude à grande echelle ne passera plus tellement la fraude devra être à grande échelle ?
Allez, haut les coeurs, Hugues, ne sous-estimes pas tes amis, ils tiennent tous les cordons.
Waddle a écrit:Ah parce que l'assaut contre le Capitole c'était un montage aussi ? Tout est donc complot sauf l'élection de Trump qui était un raté du complot quoi...
Bref si on repart sur des bases un peu plus rationnelles tu t'appuies sur quels éléments pour dire qu'il faudra une triche énorme pour que Trump perde ? Tes intuitions ? Des sondages ? Des analyses ? Car toutes les prévisions disent que ce sera serré ( avec un avantage plutôt HARRIS) mais tu as sans doute d'autres sources ?
B.Verkiler a écrit:Waddle a écrit:Ah parce que l'assaut contre le Capitole c'était un montage aussi ? Tout est donc complot sauf l'élection de Trump qui était un raté du complot quoi...
Bref si on repart sur des bases un peu plus rationnelles tu t'appuies sur quels éléments pour dire qu'il faudra une triche énorme pour que Trump perde ? Tes intuitions ? Des sondages ? Des analyses ? Car toutes les prévisions disent que ce sera serré ( avec un avantage plutôt HARRIS) mais tu as sans doute d'autres sources ?
Bien sûr que c'etait un montage. Tu as vu
les images réelles de "l'assaut sur le Capitole" retenues pendant deux ans par ces putains de démocrates qui tenaient le parlement ? Ca ressemblait furieusement à une visiste hebdomadaire de la Maison Blanche par des touristes. Effrayant certes en un sens, mais pas celui attendu.
C'est pas parce que Hugues a souillé son slip sur des délires de fascisme comme le NYT le lui ordonnait alors que Trump a rendu son siège dans les limites du légal comme.il se doit que ces délires deviennent des réalités. Comme je le disais, on a été loin en 2021 des émeutes de 2016 par tous ces connards de progessistes pour qui la democratie ne vaut que tant qu'ils gagnent.
Quant à ce sur quoi je m'appuie, c'est le bon sens, les analyses frélatees des sondages frelatés des 2 dernieree elections, qui predisaient la victoire ecrasante de la Clinton puis du Biden, de façon on ne peut plus rationnelle comme tu dirais... Et tu me.parles des sondages ? C'est quand que tu vas sortir la tête de ton cul ? Je vais pas revenir non plus sur les accusations entre vous, gens de bien, du vol de la candidature democrate de Sanders par Clinton en 2016 ou de AOC par Biden en 2020. Les fraudes et les accusations de fraude, ça ne vaut que pour les primaires democrates, - ouf, ca tombe bien cette année on a meme fait l'impasse dessus -après, on entre dans les elections les plus legitimes de tous les temps, sauf en 2016 ou il y eu ingérence russe, hihihi.
Putain mais lol, si tu pouvais comme moi voir les choses avec le recul qu'elles meritent, comme on rigolerait tous les deux. bon, comme je t'ai dit, toi que je considere encore honnete même si encore pas mal lobotomisé mais pas complètement perdu, demande-toi pourquoi à tous les niveaux administratifs les démocrates font absolument tout ce qu'ils peuvent pour rendre illégale toute mesure qui pourrait rapprocher la transparence des elections américaines du niveau europeen, ce qui ne veut pas dire parfait et infaillible A commencer par un contrôle d'identité de qui vote, ce qui est qd même tu l'admettras la moindre des choses.
Ouais_supère a écrit:Stef, t'es chiant
Ouais_supère a écrit:Stef, t'es chiant
Nicklaus a écrit:242 pour Trump
Si pour une fois j'ai tort, ce sera un des plus beaux jours de ma vie. Je rêve de voir un suicide de journaliste gauchiste en live.
Après avoir passé des semaines à dire que tout le monde déteste Trump, ils devront expliquer comment il est élu. Bon, ils nous sortiront le couplet de l'Amérique divisée avec les gentils gauchistes et les méchants, sales et analphabètes trumpistes. Il y à déjà l'interview du redneck de service qui est prête
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